Posted by: ihlos | March 6, 2009

More from the PTR (updated)

rhino While I myself have not gotten into the PTR, I have been reading some of the reports of the upcoming changes. While of course nothing is set in stone, looking at whats in the ptr currently is often a good indicator of what changes will find their way into the game.

So what are we looking at right now? First, the pets’ family modifiers are being normalized. All pets will now have +5% to Health, Armor, and Damage. Currently, tenacity pets have 10% to health and 5% to armor, so basically we will be trading 5% health for 5% damage. Personally, I think this is a set back. In general, tenacity pets need more survivability, not more damage, especially when bringing them into instances as a tank.

Especially depressing is the place that the family modifier for health sits in the health formula. It gets multiplied against Endurance Training, Base Health, Stamina buffs, the Hunters stam contribution, Great Stamina, and Blood of the Rhino. So now we lose 5% of all those benefits.

Further bad news from mania shows that pets are only receiving 30% of the hunter’s stamina. YIKES. Currently on live, hunter pets receive 45% of their hunter’s stamina. This one hurts, lets hope it gets some attention!

There is however some good news. The new expanded pet talent trees are in the game. Thunderstomp is now a mid level talent, and there are two new talents. Here is the wowhead calculator.

wild-hunt Wild Hunt: Currently states in wowhead: 40% of the Hunters Stamina and Attack Power are added to the pet. Ghostcrawler has already stated that the attack power portion will be 20%, not 40. The stamina portion was not mentioned. There are also rumors that the attack power portion is 20% of the current 22% scaling, or 4.4% for a total of 26.4% scaling, as opposed to a 42% scaling. Lets hope that this isnt the case! Why? because we need 40% stamina scaling to undo the current setbacks to the family modifier and the hunter stamina scaling. If we dont get the full scaling, we will be worse off even WITH this talent, by about 8-10%.

gorilla Silverback: Your growl also generates 1/2% of your pets total health. This talent is a survivability talent. Im still unsure if it is the best way to spend your talents, considering how many talents you wont have points for. Basically, your pet regenerates its total health in about 4 min 10 seconds. If your pet has 20,000 total health, you would be getting about 80 HPS from this talent. Also note that if you were to couple this with Last Stand, you would in theory gain more healing during its effect.

So what we come away with is unsure. If base hunter stamina scaling is not nerfed, and the Wild Hunt is applied how we would like, we could walk away with 114% stamina scaling. While thats amazing, there is the flipside. If base hunter scaling is nerfed, and the 40% scaling only applies to the base percentage, we are looking at a 10% loss, leaving us with roughly 50% stamina scaling.

We could really use some good stamina scaling right about now. What we really need is a buff to Grace of the Mantis, or a similar talent in the hunter tree. (I propose adding it to Improved Aspect of the Monkey) The combo of good scaling and being uncrittable would solidify pet’s ability to tank in instances, and with enough gear would allow for limited raid tanking or off tanking. I’ve got my fingers crossed.

UPDATE So it looks like the scaling is still 45% /SIGHOFRELIEF. That scared me for sure. It does look like they are still going ahead with family modifier normalization, which is bad but not devastating. So the only thing left is whether or not the stam increase is 40% on top or 40% of current (45%) scaling. I think ill ask mania to check it out for me 😉



  1. Nice observations. I’m glad someone is looking at the BM tanking standpoint.

    How do you feel about the Rhino change?

  2. Wow, that’s a really horrible stamina nerf. I hadn’t heard about that one, being on vacation and all. But I really can’t see how it would make it into live. They are talking about how to make pets not so easy to kill in PvP, and this would be a huge nerf in arenas.

    The 5% modifier, I hope you have it wrong. I thought it was +5% to all pets, not that the 3 different trees would become exactly the same. But then again, we all know the history of Blizzard wanting to make all pets into anonymous gray blobs, right?

    Remember, the Silverback talent most likely scales with Spirit Bond and Heart of the Rhino, so we’d get ~3% HP per growl with 2 talents. And with Longevity growl is on 3.x second cooldown. So we’re looking at less than 2 minutes to fill the bar if my head calcs are correct, which is less than half of what you stated.

  3. I posted this on mania’s forum and i think it as useful here as well:

    I just realized something. I think Mania might have been right/wrong when she reported the 30% number. I went on live and noticed something, when you look at your stamina is says that so much goes towards your pets stam. This number is in fact only 30% of the hunter stam. However when i go onto the pet tab to look at his stam is is much different than the 30% number. It calculates out to be our 45% number that we were told was how they were scaling. I think that the % mania reported is just a bug in the Hunter char window (it says 30 when we are infact getting 45). I am not positive without mania letting us know how she came about this 30% number.


  4. Zwicky, it seems you were correct. Mania has edited her post and added it now.

  5. Nordh trust me when i say that these things are probably the most important thing to me in wow, so i know them inside and out. Not the stam thing but the finding of ways to accomplish what i want to which is pet tanking. At some point here in the near future i would like to share with you the sheet i made for us hunter pet tankers because i think of all people it would help you, ihlos and me out quite a bit. Ihlos i have a much updated one for you.

  6. Okay cool, without being on the PTR myself, I had no way of looking into this myself, ill update the post

  7. Also, the rhino change is pretty depressing. With the Thunderstomp change, all pets become viable options for pet tanking. I was looking forward to my rhino being a powerhouse. That knockback would have been a great damage reducer and was fun for pvp (and not OP imo).

    As it stands, i still love my rhino and ill still hang onto him, but the knockback isnt as fun with just one. oh well =(

    I think the gorilla move will be great, but it has been observed that many bosses will probably be immune to it, making it more useful for pvp.

  8. Zwicky, it’d be awesome to see that spreadsheet. I’ve been taking the tanking business a bit more with a gut feel than proper numbers. Kind of how I’ve always played the game. But I usually back the gut feelings up with numbers from time to time to see if I’m not doing it completely wrong 😉

  9. I sent it via email to ilhos, with the intent of it reaching you as well. Be kind to it and i’ll be happy to explain anything that is going on in it.

  10. As far as silver back goes i think it is a waste in real* tanking. At 3% every 3.5 seconds it just seems so underwhelming. lets say your pet has 30k hp
    30k * 3% = 900 hp every 3.5 seconds. It sounds like a waste to me.
    If you soloing lots of mobs and need more AoE threat from the pet (more than thunderstomp + swipe/bad attitude) this will get you a little bit more from the healing threat it produces but again i see this as no go in its current form for any kind of tanking. Maybe questing / leveling / grinding but still i think there are better talents to be had with those 2 points.

  11. Are you sure it produces healing threat?

    And yes, it may sound a bit lack luster, but 3% HP every 3.5 seconds isn’t that bad. How much self heal can the other tank classes get per second?

    But I’d rather see damage mitigation for the same amount than self heals.

  12. Here is why i feel like it is a waste to me:

    one tick from a heal over time is much greater than this 900.

    Mend Pet: 5250 * 1.5 (bonus to healing) / 5 (number of ticks) = 1575 hp every three seconds for 15 seconds.

    All other spells produce healing threat why wouldn’t this one? at least that was the basis of my thought about this skill. As far as threat goes i really feel like guard dog or 6% more dmg would produce alot more threat than two points in this silverback talent.

  13. Oh yeah an i second the though on more pet dmg mitigation

  14. I think this may not knock our socks off but anything that increases our pets HPS is a good thing. The problem as I see it is that now there arent enough points to get everything we want. it becomes a choice between silverback and other defensive talents, so its going to take some real critical thinking and theorycraft to decide whats most valuable.

    Id love to work collaboratively together with you guys to see what kind of decision we can come to.

  15. Zwicky, T5 set bonus doesn’t cause healing aggro. I don’t think Spirit Bond does either. We can always hope he gives us a bit of aggro though =)

    And while Mend Pet gives more HPS, Silverback is “free” of charge, “passive” and it doesn’t mean you can’t use them both at the same time.

  16. The more I think about it the more I think I came down a little harsh on Silverback (sorry talent). You guys are right in that it is passive and essentially “free” and it increases our HPS. In a setting where I’m going off to solo things I am going to more than need this talent and that’s why I think I came down on it to hard. In a raid/heroic setting I see myself with 15 must have pet talent points. This leaves me with 5 to use elsewhere and to me I don’t see them going into silverback.

    I see this talent as a nice to have talent rather than an essential one for tanking.

  17. Hmm i just assumed that silverback would cause agro, maybe it wont because it is not a spell. I do know for a fact that mend pet causes you more agro because you are healing ( i did TPS parses back in BC because i wanted to know how to maximize my threat as a melee hunter, dont ask*), i had just figured that silverback would cause extra healing agro because the pet was healing itself.

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