Posted by: ihlos | April 16, 2009

Pardon our Dust

wrench I have a ton of stuff I’m working on, so I thought I’d keep you guys in the loop and also get some feedback. Here’s whats been going on.

– I’ve updated the macros section, the talent reviews, and “the pets” page with new information.

– Next up for updating is the talent tree reccomendations. These are kinda tough as now there are these new talents, but still the same amount of points, and things are getting complicated. I’ll be putting up some builds and dealing with it as best I can, and over time I may change them as we see the impact of the new moves and decide which ones are best.

– This leaves the Tanking and Pet Stats pages. Both are in need of some serious updates. The pet stat formulas have been changed, and it will take some testing and theorycraft to pin them down.

– This leads to the next thing im working on, getting us some forums tied to the site. Based on some of the email conversations ive had, we could be the ‘elitist jerks’ of pet tanking. (the knowledgeable part, not the jerk part) I don’t have money to buy hosting, so it will need to be free forums, im looking at some now, if anyone has any recommendations, that would be great.

– I also got a digital drawing tablet, and have started to experiment with that. Once things get a little more sane, I intend to do some tenacity/hunter based art, and maybe a new icon ( i really like my current one though ). If anyone has some cool suggestions, I’m all ears.

– Last night I got my first chance to do some raid tanking with my guild. I know I know, im totally behind the ball on this, but I posted durantes sapphiron movie on my guild forums and my guild asked me to fill in as an off tank for Naxxramas last night. I had my tanking set and build ready ( yay dual spec ). I think that the combo of dual spec ( they can ask me to go back to dps at any time ) plus the video really changed some minds on the issue. The raid went well, I off tanked the first two bosses of the spider wing, and the first boss in the plauge wing. On bosses where no off tank was needed I switched to my raid dps build, and there were only a few instances where I was needed for trash, and even those could have been done without me, the trash is pretty easy given peoples gear these days. I helped out with the shades and the gargoyles.

My turtle took hits like a champ, and I handled positioning and target acquisition ok, but there was room for improvement. Overall i think i made a very good impression, and the gms and raid leaders were excited about the prospect of using the turtle more often, and even saw it as having advantages over a player offtank in some ways. Woot! I am very excited about future raids, and I am eager to keep upgrading my tanking set to expand my capabilities.

– I’m also toying with the idea of writing an addon to track the pet’s threat on multiple targets, kinda like a pet omen, as well as helping out with some of the other logistics of setting focuses and macros, mend pet timing, etc. Realistically, i wont have time for this, so if someone else has experience with addons and wants to talk over some ideas, please email me.

Let the Hunt begin!



  1. If you wanted a free forum, I could setup a forum for you. Drop me an email if you have not come up with something yet.


  2. I’m glad to hear things went well. I too have been trying to get my Guild to let me tank. Funny thing, I’ve found this site a little wile back now but before I found it I was planning on doing this sites goal on my own, once I found this site I was shocked to see that someone none less so many others shared my dream. Ihlos you have my respect. I will try to become a common on this site with the rest of you, I’ll also be posting all the heroics I’ll be MT’ing also I’d like to mention I’ve tanked all normal instances in northrend other then Ooculos, That one seems impossible to do with a pet seeing all the mounted combat needed.

  3. Cy
    Ill get in touch with you and see whats up

    Glad to have you aboard! When I first saw the post about the new pet families i was stoked. I was testing the expansion at the time, and immediately became excited about the prospects of pet tanking. So far, we have been steadily gaining ground with buffs, with the taunt issue being our first possible setback (more research into this is needed).

    Its always nice to meet other hunters who want to explore this part of their class, Im looking forward to hearing more from you!

  4. thanks, btw don’t you think it’s funny how in the new LFG we hunter can’t go into saying we’d like to tank? my friends and I were all laughing over that. they tell me often to quit with the pet tanking comments i make since it’s basically all i’ve talked about since Wrath came out. however my friend and I have been doing testing my pets strengths for some time now, at 70 i had a pet monkey MT heroic SP. it was very hard on a lot of the heavy hitting trash pulls, but he MT’ed all the bosses. anyway I’ll be around, and If you need anyone to help you with the pet stats, I’ll be there to help, I was once a math major.

  5. Cool, thanks for the offer with the math, I myself am a math minor, and i have great respect for anyone who does higher math classes, they are tough to say the least.

    My hope is that the forums will be a great way for us to bounce formulas and what not off each other, and test out each others work.

    Its good to know the formulas and how much various stats give you and which talents really pay off and which ones dont. It helps us make informed talent decisions.

    I too got a laugh out of the LFG system. If laugh is the word for it. I made a few ‘man keeping me down’ comments in gchat. Frankly its not just us it affects, but also people with multiple 80’s. If you have another char you are willing to play with you have to use the comments to do it, which might get missed. I think we should all start a thread over on the suggestions forum 🙂

    Protest for Pet’s Tanking rights! =D

  6. Damn skippy on that one! lol, btw If your interested in checking me out i have my main on Dragonmaw with the name Astiroth, my pets are KoopaTroopa (guess what that is!?), MisterBig (a Devilsaur), Squirm (a Ravanger), BlackWarWolf (Guess that one TOO!?) and MommaBear (Had to after i got the baby bear!) anyway, I’m just going to say this again, GET A BEAR! they rock now! the limit for swipe is gone and they hit all things infront of them, not just 3, and they’re the shiz for Multi threat now since they have that AND thunderclap! well anyway. Peace out Man, I’m going to do some Math now as a matter of fact over the HP facts, since HP is such an important stat for hunter tanking.

  7. good luck on the HP stats

    ~another math minor

  8. For the record, re: pet tanking, my greatest success was after I posted my desire for tanking equipment suggestions on our guild’s tank section. Few days later, we were discussing a heroic Azjol run (still after my Gossamer, see).

    Me: “I don’t know if I trust myself to MT it yet, but if you need OT I can handle it.”
    DruidTank: 🙂
    Rogue Friend: “You think he’s joking.”
    Warlock friend: “He’s dead serious.”

    It’s damned nice to realize that, especially now that dual specs are coming out, we pet tankers are genuinely being taken seriously for the choice. It also means that my request for ‘offspec’ stuff might actually start to be taken with *genuine* seriousness.

    Now if that damned Gossamer would drop, I’d be a happy camper. :/

  9. Grats on the off tanking in Naxx.

    …but you do know there’s a new 10 man, right? ;D Why are you visiting old content when there’s new fun stuff to be had? =D

  10. I actually seem to have nailed down the pet Stamina, HP, and armor stats this weekend while working on a larger project (more on that coming soon). Since people seem pretty math competent I’ll write them here and hopefully be able to get some confirmation. Don’t forget your order of operation kiddos.

    (Pet Base Stam + (Hunter Total Stamina * .45 * (1 + Wild Hunt Mod)) + Flat Stam buffs) * (1 + Great Stam Mod) * (1 + Blood of the Rhino Mod) * (1 + Kings Mod) = Pet Total Stam

    (Pet Base Health + (Pet Total Stam * 10 * (1 + Family Mod)) + Flat Health Buffs) * (1 + Endurance Training Mod) = Total Pet Health

    (Pet Base Armor * (1 + Family Mod)) + (Hunter Total Armor * .45) – 6) * (1 + Thick Hide) * (1 + Natural Armor) * (1 + Pet Barding) = Pet Armor

    Level 80 Base stats.
    Pet base stam: 361
    Pet base health: 2582
    Pet base armor: 9729

    These worked Sunday and Monday on the 3.1 PTR, so hopefully everything has survived the transition to live. It also shows that the tooltips on the pet window and hunter contribution to pet are badly out of date. I made a post on the bug forum about it a few days back.

  11. Great site Ilhos.

    I’m another wanna be hunter tank – with a few instances & heroics under my belt on the old BC system and the newer wrath one.

    Ive respecced a few times to BM for tanking goodness but had to repec back each week for raid DPS.

    Finally i can have a constant Tanking build so expect to see me around here alot. 😀

    PS- Durante you are a god – Or rather bubbles is 🙂

  12. Durante, excellent number crunching.

  13. Hmm sadly Durante i dont know what you mean by these worked in the 3.1 ptr as i was never n to test these but i will now give you the low down. In 3.0 before WotLK came out Ihlos and i went several days in trying to knock down this stamina forumla. Here was the result that matched pet health to a tee in 3.0.

    Pet health = (Pet Base Health + Stamina boost) * (1+Endurance Training) * (1+Family Modifier)

    Stamina boost = ( FLOOR(45% Hunter’s Stam*(1 + Wild Hunt Mod) + Flat Stamina buffs)* (1 + Great Stam Mod) * (1 + Blood of the Rhino Mod)) + FLOOR( Pet Base stam * 1.12 * 1.04)) x 10

    FLOOR(45% Hunter’s Stam*(1 + Wild Hunt Mod) + Stamina buffs)*1.12.* 1.04) this is the green number in the pet window.

    FLOOR( Pet Base stam * 1.12 * 1.04) this is the white number in the pet window.

    Now here is where it gets confusing. The green and white number can still be found exactly by these two bottom equations. However when i try the Pet health equation that used to be spot on i am coming up roughly 5-7% off. If i plug in your equations with the change to the family modifier not applying to pet base health or health buffs the result is that we are now 9% off what i was testing in game in 3.1.

    Nothing 1382 361621 14182 1 1 1 1 361 621 13212 970 7.3% 12902.45 9.0%

  14. Ugh posted before i was done. Forget about the end of that last post and any spelling gram errors. doh.

    Anyway let me explain further. From 3.1 myself untalented in every way.

    Hunter Stam: 1382
    base pet Stam: 361
    Hunter to pet Stam:621
    total health in heath window:14182

    Health calculated using my formula: 13212
    difference: 970
    7.3% Low

    Health calculated using your fomula: 12902
    9.0% Low

    Now I have quite a few plot points that i’m testing this on and for now i can’t think what in the heck they did to this formula. I am going to get on and take quite a few more points to see any trend shows.

    If i missed something let me know.

  15. Ugh more clarifications

    all 1.12 in the posts 2 ago should be (1+GS mod)
    all 1.04 in the posts 2 ago should be (1+BR mod)

    Base pet health: 2582

  16. Man, i need to get that forum up, we can’t be doing serious formula discussion in comments forever

    I’m working on it guys


    Welcome, glad to have you. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions, or ask these guys on the site. Always nice to meet a pet tanker

    Thanks, yeah I was hoping we would be taking on new stuff, but the guild didnt have many on, and only one tank, so we ran naxx with me as off tank. I think if we were to be in the same situation again, now that they have seen that the pet is capable, they might have decided to give ulduar a spin.

    Oh, and did you guys notice that pet talent specs get wiped when you switch specs!!!!!!!!! WOOOOOT encounter specific pet builds FTW!!!!!!!

  17. Yeah ihlos it is making this whole finding different health/armor numbers at different spec / talents way easier.

  18. Obviously we still have to set our hunter talents, but this gives pets a flexibility that a player tank simply doesnt have.

  19. A (non pet) tank can be talented for two specific type of boss fights if need be. The Pet can be talented for each individual boss plus if a wipe occurs for a reason can be re talented accordingly.

  20. Which is very exciting!

  21. Welp i stand corrected. I dont know where all my data came from the first time i got health values but it looks like durante’s general forumla is correct. On mon when i look back at my spreadsheet i’ll be able to tell you more.

    I guess it serves me right for trying to get data in org where random buffs are rampant. Went back and got these numbers:

    Hunter Stam: 1382
    base pet Stam: 361
    Hunter to pet Stam:621
    total health in heath window:12893

    Health calculated using durante’s formula: 12902

    Its close probably just some floor’s in there somewhere.

    now its time to take some armor values to try to iron that one out. ugh

  22. Sounds good, once the forums are up the first thing im gonna do is start a stamina formula thread.

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